I have this thought, that with enough time the right woman could get me to do anything.
I tend to think that people are capable of anything under the right circumstances, and I wonder how malleable I would be in the hands of a woman that really knew how to push my buttons.
Somethings would no doubt require devious manipulation from the outset, a real desire on her part to change me in some fundamental way. Somethings might be mutually exclusive, where a woman could get me to do A, but it would take a different woman, a different lifetime to get me to do B.
Thus with an infinite amount of dommes and an Infinite amount of time you could any conceiveable act of submission out of me.
For instance with training, you could get me to kiss you even without the binding, blindfold and collar.
I’m not so worried about that in a relationship. I don’t imagine that I would fall for and commit myself to someone who just just using my submission to see how far she could make me go. It could happen, but it seems very unlikely, people aren’t often that good at concealing their motives.
But in casual play? Well that’s something of which I am remaining mindful. I intend not to do D/s casually, I just want to keep it friendly, find someone who enjoys giving pain, so I can take it for them, nothing more than that.
But… What if?
What if we really click? What if we have a great time? What if I like her? and she begins to push my boundaries? I am so eager to please, so anxious to submit (even just a little,) that given the right mixture of chemistry and stimulation my boundaries may crumble like sand castles before the tide.
It may of course be premature to worry about this, but I am giving it some consideration. I think what needs to happen is that I have pre-activity dialogue about here are my boundaries, don’t push on them please because I may not care about them mid scene the way I do now or will after. Which I believe is a fairly standard part of negotiation and shouldn’t be too awkward.
Beyond that, I think that if I find someone cool, with whom I do want to play regularly, I’m going to have to have a second conversation that might be a little weird.
“Hey, as we hang out and play together, I might start to get a little flexible with my boundaries, but you shouldn’t push on them because I get stupid when I’m around someone I like and I’ll regret it later.”
Which looks to me like
“Please be a grown up, because I can’t”
Which isn’t likely to be a huge turn on, ya know?
It’s the sort of problem that seems to be limited to me and me only, as far as I can tell. I never see discussions featuring other men trying figure out how to maintain their boundaries while interacting with dominant women. I’m left pondering by myself how I can satiate my need to explore my masochism, while retaining my submission and propriety for a long term relationship.
Any suggestions?
Anyone?
Well, I’m not a man, but I do get it and worry about it. It really comes down to trust and communication, I think. Laying everything out beforehand, and trusting whoever you’re playing with to disregard anything you say that deviates from what you said when you were clearheaded. The one I’ve been playing with thankfully has a good sense of when to stop a scene, because I’m more than willing to take it as long as he wants to keep dishing it out. With someone more careless, I’d be in serious trouble. It’s a scary thing to contemplate.
That’s what I’m thinking, that I’m going to have to trust whoever I’m playing with to stick to the plan, even if I say the plan can change.
I don’t trust super easy, though.
I don’t think that any first time engagement is going to effect me enough to start crumbling my boundaries, but then again I really don’t know.
I don’t trust easy, either. I was not expecting to get so spaced out the first time. One minute I just wanted to know what it felt like, and the next I was content to just stay there and let it go on as long as it could. I did let go of some of my misgivings, but anything that would have lasting consequences was still a no. Even more so, since I couldn’t trust myself to think it through.
““Hey, as we hang out and play together, I might start to get a little flexible with my boundaries, but you shouldn’t push on them because I get stupid when I’m around someone I like and I’ll regret it later.”
Actually, I think that’s kinda cute, very mature, and a sign that the Domme is doing something right. I don’t think it has anything to do with not being a grown up or not taking responsibility for yourself (as you ARE doing that by saying “Hey, when I’m zoned out, I can’t give consent all that well, so please be careful and don’t push my boundaries.”) You should be that comfortable with someone you’re playing with IF you’re going to submit, and she should be responsible enough to not take advantage of you.
I think it’s self-aware which is usually a sign of maturity, but it also feels like asking another party to be more responsible than I am willing/capable of being. You know?
I feel like that if I have a good time with someone, I’m going to start liking them, maybe develop feelings that make it difficult to assert my boundaries, or just make my boundaries feel less important than making them as happy as possible.
“I think it’s self-aware which is usually a sign of maturity, but it also feels like asking another party to be more responsible than I am willing/capable of being. You know?”
That is exactly what you are doing. Recognizing a weakness and asking someone you perceive to be stronger – and trust – is not a bad thing. It’s like walking into a casino and handing your buddy your atm card because you know that when you get going you aren’t going to stop. (Of course, the bad part of that example is that addictive gambling is inherently destructive…)
Well when you put it that way I sound remarkable mature and capable. Now i just need to know that my play partner is worthy of that sort of trust.
“…it also feels like asking another party to be more responsible than I am willing/capable of being.”
When you bottom/submit to someone that is what you are doing anyway. Especially if there is bondage involved – once you’re tied up, you have put irrevocable trust in them to be the responsible party. But even if you’re not physically restrained, it’s kinda the whole point of the interaction that the top is the one responsible for the well-being of everyone involved, and they should know better than to push a boundary you asked not to have pushed.
I think where the whole non-attachment thing becomes more of your responsibility, and more of a potential issue, is as the relationship continues; that’s going to be the hard part. “Hey, as we hang out and play together, I might start to get a little flexible with my boundaries, but you shouldn’t push on them because I get stupid when I’m around someone I like and I’ll regret it later.” I think that’s actually a really good thing to tell a play partner up front. If you’re just looking for play and don’t want to get attached or lose your boundaries, that’s something your partner should know up front, unless it’s just a one-off scene.
I’ve played with guys who had similar boundaries for similar reasons. My longest lasting bdsm relationship was with a sub whose limit was no intercourse.. because he knew that made him get attached to women in a way he didn’t want coming up between us. And that was totally fine. He communicated that boundary from the beginning of our interactions, of keeping it strictly play and not romantic, and we ended up doing D/s regularly together for a couple of years.
I think you’re right that, when bottoming one is always asking that the top be responsible for both parties. I’m not as worried about that, (perhaps simply because I’ve never been socialized to worry about that sort of thing, but that is another matter.)
I think now that I’ve written it out, and had this conversation I”m ready to handle the non-attachment thing, or at least have that conversation.
Looking at my history however, I’m not sure any amount of communication and careful distance keeping is going to be enough…
But, your story is encouraging, perhaps i will be able to manage it without regrets.
“Which looks to me like “Please be a grown up, because I can’t”.”
Not to me. I think it’s absolutely fair enough and I also think you are 100% spot-on about your boundaries shifting as you get comfortable with your play partner and want to give her more. It’s a natural evolution if things are going well: For most relationships that’s exactly how you both *want* it to go, so if she is good at building a relationship, it’s almost certainly going to happen.
I think the risk of overstepping is much *less* during play (with a responsible top) because it’s already negotiated. To me it seems much more of an issue as you build a relationship with her over time – trust grows, curiosity grows, and you start to really *want* to go further and the boundaries can start to seem a little… less important.
It’s smart of you to recognise this risk, and I *do* think you need to say it just as you did in your post:
I think it’s a compliment to her, and you have to be able to trust her to be on the same page with you.
Ferns
I’d also suggest that you do that check-in regularly to shore it up, and do it over coffee when you are clear headed and thinking straight. Not just prior to play, or in a play environment.
Ferns
Hmmm, Well I feel reassured that during play negotiated boundaries aren’t going to be pushed by a responsible partner, even if they start looking a little flimsy as I get into it.
I still wonder though, how do I have that secondary conversation, the check in, that says “Hey, I kind of like-like you, but I have these (Now arbitrary seeming) boundaries in place because I don’t think that we’re long term relationship material (because of my beleifs and values that you don’t share) and therefore I feel the need to remind you that even though you might be able to bend me to your every desire with just a curl of your finger, that I would pretty please like you to maintain a friendly distance between us even as I ache to be close to you.” ?
I’m sure this is way premature to worry about, and I’m not losing sleep over it, but it is on my mind.
“It’s the sort of problem that seems to be limited to me and me only, as far as I can tell. I never see discussions featuring other men trying figure out how to maintain their boundaries while interacting with dominant women.”
In my opinion, you don’t see this conversation often because your boundaries are more uncommon. They also are part of the primal side of all this… From a few thousand miles away it’s easy for me to respect them, but sensuality is such a part of my ‘thang’ that I would walk all around you boundaries. Someone who says no scat or knife play… well that’s different. I’m not into it either, if I were… just don’t have a big meal before and leave the blades at home. My libido guides and will travel. So yes, in those respects it’s a unique problem. I’m not convinced you are the only one with the challenge. I do know people who separate out parts of all of this that I am just unexperienced doing… so suggestions from me may not be as valid.
Totally agreeing with Ferns (*shock gasp*) on the quote. It’s a compliment. It would probably turn me on in that forbidden fruit kind of way… but I’m a big girl! Checks and balances…
I’m sure other people do deal with setting boundaries and limits, and feeling reluctant to enforce them as the get into things. But I don’t see this discussion ever focused on male submission, because so often the only dialogue there is about how to find and attract a partner.
And you’re right on the other thing my boundaries are not common ones among the BDSM set, and when people have similar ones it tends to be for different reasons (we can’t have sex, because you’re not my primary relationship ect.)
So I sort of worry that I’m going to have this conversation and the other person will thing my reasons are silly, and perhaps feel that if I start to waver they can push because conviction was all I had.
I’ve not been reading your blog for long, I just recently stalked you, but I have found you’re quite concise about your delivery and reasons behind your boundaries and convictions. Therefore, it remains part of the integrity of the other person involved. I don’t think you would make it to the secondary conversation if the trust and understanding weren’t established early on. Perhaps this is where you are over thinking it. Would you have those feelings for someone who you didn’t trust enough to ‘get it’?
I think you’re probably right, if they don’t “get it” if I don’t feel understood, I’m probably not going to get too excited too soon.
Unfortunately, it’s always going to be complicated. Any aspect of BDSM is going to involve forming enough of a relationship to build trust, and forming that relationship can cause emotional lines to blur. You risk getting tangled up in wanting more on a physical or emotional level, but not wanting the same from an intellectual/spiritual perspective. So you’ll need to have, as everyone is saying, a place and time to discuss your needs from that perspective, and know that’s what will be honored regardless of how you feel in context. And speaking from experience, it’s bloody hard. At the same time, I’ve found that a feedback loop of longing for more and denying it to both myself and the boy is incredibly erotic on its own, but also quite frustrating. The fact that you think about this in depth and are able to articulate it is a good thing. As long as you make sure to be proactive and communicative, you should be fine.
Yeah, it’s a shame good things are rarely simple.
I’ve never been terribly fond of self denial, for as much as I practice it, I’ve never developed a taste for it.
Well, in one sense it’s very simple: you have a clear view of your boundaries and the ability to articulate them. I do hope that most people in the community are aware of the fact that our minds are not exactly functioning as normal during play, and are above taking advantage of a person in that state. So in that sense, much of the complication involves your own internal conflict, and again, it seems you’re pretty well-prepared simply by having the self-awareness to see the potential issue and seriously considering your method for handling it.
Would an infinite number of dommes beating an infinite number of subs inevitably (and unintentionally) reproduce the complete works of Shakespeare in Morse code? I think that’s basically what Einstein’s theory of special relativity says.
Yes I believe that was the point of his theory, shame how often that detail gets over looked.
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I am a switch, but I prefer Domming. Just because you are a man does not mean you don’t have the right to submit yourself to the will of the domme, switch and change your mind in the moment, and do other “immature” and “womanly” things. You are a human. We all have moments when we need others to be the adult. And that is fine. It’s understandable. What’s more, it should be accounted for during play and respected.
I am absolutely the same way when I’m in a sub position. In the moment, I will sometimes agree to almost anything if just not to ruin the moment. And I’ve had that taken advantage of and I’ve regretted my decisions later. It’s a terrible feeling. What’s worse, you blame yourself. And I know that as a Domme, I am personally terrified of inflicting that kind of doubt and remorse on anyone.
Do not ever be afraid to have that conversation. Any Domme worth playing with should understand and respect that, and not look down on you for it. If anything, they should take it to be a compliment to their prowess, and a deep expression of your trust in them- something not to be thrown away and taken lightly.
What’s more, do not ever look down on yourself for feeling that way or being so willing sometimes to just submit or let go when you know in the long run you’ll never be ok with what you let yourself do. It’s not a crime. It’s human. Just accept it, account for it, and try to prevent it. Play safe, always.
I agree totally, but can not help but still worrying a tad about having this conversation.
Sure, any Domme (hell, any person) worth playing with is going to accept and respect your boundaries, but it seems as the conversation looms in the future that the fun play you risk losing if the conversation goes poorly is more valuable than the boundaries I need to establish.
It’s foolish, I know, but I want so badly for things to go well, that my personal and emotional well being seems less important at present. I know it’s not, but still, it is hard to do the smart, responsible thing.
I kind of understand- wanting it to just be perfect, like a Domme should just know to not touch certain things so that you don’t have to make anything uncomfortable between you and ruin the magic. Why should you be the thing that makes things awkward when it doesn’t *need* to be? It’s only personal boundaries; why should I even bother with them? I’m a kinky boy, right? I’m the submissive? Shouldn’t I just be free and no-strings-attached?
I know that feeling well. I wish it all worked that way. But the conversation is important. That’s why I, personally, make it part of my first conversations with the person. I mean, I have no tact, I’m always talking about sex with my friends and partners. Most of my platonic friends even know my hard and soft limits and I know theirs. So making them no big deal sort of helps to make them no big deal when talking to potential play partners. So everyone knows. It’s simple fact and it isn’t going to budge.
Example: I won’t do needle play like I can’t do a split. Simple. True. Not a big deal. I’m not going to spontaneously drop into my full legspan because that’s your fetish, you know? And I’d say that before hand. I can’t. And don’t even think of sitting on me in the moment to get me to do one. Both of us will end up severely unhappy and disappointed. Bad analogy, I know, but I think it sort of makes my point.
What I’m *trying* and prolly failing to say is that don’t treat the conversation as the sex talk you have to have with your child. Treat it like making plans for a surprise birthday party. Because just because it’s important doesn’t mean it’s a huge scary deal. You know? Play safe!
It’s mostly that I am concerned that my particular and somewhat unique limits (No sex among other things) may be too restricting for a lady who likes to get what she wants.
It might ruin the magic, it might appear as if I’m not as excited about what’s sparking between us as she is, and it worries me that the conversation will ruin something.
I’m going to have it, I can’t not have it, but I’m hardly looking forward to the ordeal. But hopefully I’m making much ado about nothing and everything will continue along swimmingly.