Since one of the big things I am looking for in a romantic partner is shared religious beliefs, I anticipate that I am going to have to either introduce the concept of BDSM to this hypothetical future partner or perhaps seriously change her perception of BDSM. I think it’s why I find myself very concerned with how BDSM is perceived by the mainstream.
I haven’t spent much time on OKCupid recently because getting a job is a bit more urgent than getting a date. But I received a message recently from a young woman that gave me the opportunity to practice my pitch for kink. Basically she noticed the apparent contradiction of being Old fashioned and Kinky, and asked me about it.
I’m posting the relevant parts of our exchange. Hers in Italic, mine in Bold.
I first noticed your religion is “Christianity and laughing about it.” I tend to interpret that someone saying they were raised in a Christian home and they call themselves Christian, but they really don’t have a clue as to what it really means. However, that doesn’t seem accurate with you at all. You seem to know and own up to your convictions.
So this indicates that she must have read my responses to questions about religion and sex, because that’s the only place I really talk about my beliefs with any depth.
My other observation is that you’ve mentioned yes, you’re a virgin. Yet you’re super kinky sexually. How do you pull that off?
So, That was exciting that she noticed, which means she must check the personality matrix like I do, and found it interesting. She’s out of the area for a while and I’m not terribly invested, so honesty is really easy for me. First I answered her question about my faith, which boils down to me feeling that serious =/= somber, and that it seems laughably implausible that I should find a nice Christian gal that wants the same things I do.
Which brings us to, How do I pull of being super kinky and a virgin? Part of it is just that I’m very honest about what I want, which I think a lot of people have trouble with, I answered questions truthfully, and added explanations if I needed to no matter how embarrassing the they were, which means I test as being far more kinky than average.
The other part is that I am pretty kinky, I guess. How do I know this whilst still being a virgin? I’m very introspective to begin with, so I know what I want even if I haven’t done it. I also know that what turns me on, what drives me sexually has to do with pleasing my partner, and being desired by her (as hypothetical as she may be at the moment.) So many questions were something along the lines of “If she wants to do this will you be into it?” And my answer is almost always “Yes! Hell Yes! If she wants something she gets it.” (Which exceptions for non-monogamy and a few other hard limits.)
I wasn’t perfectly upfront about wanting BDSM to be a part of my relationships, I used language that I feel should inform a similarly kinky person, but not freak out someone vanilla. Our conversation continued and she responded:
Now I digress to our kinkyness conversation. (heh, that sounds so weird!) You must be incredibly sure of yourself knowing what you want before you try it out yourself. There’s a possibility you’re romanticizing what you’d find pleasurable. Or maybe the girl of your dreams would find only nude cuddling the hottest thing ever instead of using S&M materials… hypotheticals are great right 😛
Regarding your kinkyness, I wouldn’t say it’s a turn-off. My guess is I’m low on the kinkyness factor because I answered questions based on how I live my life now, not based off of what I’d like my sex life to be like once I find The One and get married. But yes, new things do freak me out. Not sure how I’d respond if my partner surprised me with some strange sex contraption and wanted to try it out right on the spot! But with anything, if I’m with a person I trust I would open up more. IT does take my awhile to trust someone with intimacy, but once they have it.. oh man, the chemistry can be quite explosive.
Which sounds like a perfectly nice and slightly flirty Christian girl’s response to me. Some parts, along with some of her responses to questions indicate to me that she’s not a virgin, (which I’m starting to think can’t be a dealbreaker, but that’s a whole other depressing post.) She clearly didn’t pick up on the language I used as being particularly informed on BDSM, and her response seems to reflect having the popular image of BDSM in her head, that it must always be rough, and include strange contraptions. So I decide to be a little more direct in my response
On the subject of my kinkyness, it’s more than having idealized some S&M materials or what have you. I’ve thought long and hard about how to explain it to someone who isn’t similarly inclined, I still don’t know how to be clear and succinct about it.
I think the underlying concept is that I want to be desired, and I want my sexuality to be not only accepted but celebrated. I really kink heavily on ownership and the the sensual aspects of D/s. I have some pretty heavy masochistic fantasies, but couldn’t engage in them without an active partner who derives pleasure from the exchange. I have had a little experience, not sexual, but enough to confirm for me that I do indeed like receiving painful stimulus. *guilty smile*
At this point I was interested in linking her to a tumblr post I’m particularly proud of, in which I give explaining my masochism a go but since my tumblr is full of porn, I didn’t think that would give her a favorable impression of me. I wanted to link every post I’ve ever written about how much D/s could mean to me, not just sexually but emotionally, romantically, explaining that I don’t need toys or acting or anything but me and my lover to make all of my wildest fantasies come true.
I went with something shorter, I didn’t want to seem nearly as obsessed as I am, or take away from the rest of our conversation, which was about apologetics, pop culture, city life, and job hunting.
She replied, opening with:
oh boy. You admitted that S&M is a turn-on for you 😛 I guess it weirds me out some because I don’t see how it fits in the whole “making love” scenario. I’m aware sex isn’t always gentle and smooth, but it still seems a bit extreme to me. I’m ok waiting to find out what my sexual fantasies will be 😛 As I’m not in a sexual relationship right now and I’m not planning to be in one until I get hitched, I don’t think about it too often. I’m a Schrodinger fan!
This seems, I don’t know, slightly naive, in that people don’t always mesh sexually just because they’re in love. I’m not entirely certain that she’s grasped that I’m the submissive one, or that I want to receive pain before this point.
I was concerned I might have freaked you out. I kind of feel like it’s important to think about this now, because well, sex is important, it’s a big part of life and I worry about falling for someone who finds my sexuality repulsive. As for it’s extremity well, there’s a lot I could say about it if it interests you, but otherwise I’ll just let it drop.
That’s my rebuttal really. I can’t afford not to think about this, knowing that what turns me on is not the “norm.” It’s a big part of who I am and it would not be realistic for me to expect that it’s going to be accepted and cherished. I think this is a vanilla privilege thing right? If you are hetero and primarily vanilla you can be fairly confident that your partners are going to be able to accommodate you at the very least.
I’m not interested in being merely accommodated, I want someone who wants me the way I am.
Now there rest of our conversation has been fairly promising, and should continue to be so, but if she isn’t at least a little excited about my kink, I don’t see it going anywhere serious.
I hope things go well, my friend.
I’m not getting my hopes up over this one, She seems nice enough but if talking about kink doesn’t excite something in her, then I don’t know that I want to invest into it much further. All it would take is a little frisson on her part to make feel like there is a possibility of things working out.
I would suggest that you seriously consider curious to be an okay response at this sort of early stage. Most people find it difficult imagine whether they would like things that they haven’t done or can’t see. Just think of how many people pass on really great houses that need a bit of redecorating, because they can’t imagine what the finished house would be like.
It’s also very committing for a woman to say that she might like to be in control, as the stereotypes are quite negative. I appreciate that they are for submissive men too, and you’re brave to come out, but you may find it difficult if you expect the same sort of bravery from someone who doesn’t really know what you’re talking about. That’s why I would say curious is enough, as that will lead her to ask questions and find what makes being dominant
Are you suggesting that she comes across as curious to here? or that I should be open to someone who displays curiosity rather than holding out for someone who is already interested in BDSM?
I guess I’m just really scared of the idea of building a connection with someone who is never going to want this.
Even prior to learning about BDSM, a discussion of it would have pushed my buttons, eliciting excitement and curiosity, Here I kinda got the vibe that this this gal had some initial curiosity, but that was soon sated and replaced with slight distaste.
Yes and yes. The dialogue you quote here suggests that you begin to talk about something else and she comes back to talking about kink. That’s curiosity in my book.
About holding out for someone who’s into BDSM, personally I would fall in love with a person and worry about kink later. One of the reasons I say that is that, at 20, I thought that my boyfriend wanting me to shave all my public hair off was quite kinky and I was very reluctant. Neither did I like it at first. Now I wax each month, without fail. So, suffice to say my tastes have changed a lot – and I wasn’t a particularly niave or sheltered 20 year old. 20 year old me would have been, as this girl is, a bit weirded out by BDSM, but curious, as she is. So anecdotally, I would say that curious and open minded has a lot of potential.
That’s totally understandable. But I guess that you want someone who is open to the idea and open to new things? If that’s the case, surely you both will develop your sexuality and kink together? Working out what works for you both over time. Just like – if you hate tomatoes, could you marry someone who loved them? Surely the answer is yes, and you have some meals with them, and some without and you just work it out. Relationships have negotiation. That’s why I say that curious is enough. She doesn’t have to be like ‘oh that really turns me on’ right now to develop an interest over time.
Well, emotion is notoriously difficult to read in emails/im/etc. But imo curiosity is definitely present. She sounds to me cautious (but then, she is talking about sex with a man on the internet – caution shows that she has brains), she sounds to me like she’s not ruling out anything out, just saying that she doesn’t want to get all excited about the idea of sex etc. when she’s not going to do it anytime soon. Quite understandable.
Obviously all of that’s just my opinion, etc. etc.
I guess I don’t really see curiosity beyond the initial “How the fuck is this guy a virgin and super kinky?” Obviously I’ve only shared a portion of the conversation, but the discussion had a bit more depth in other areas and she asked more questions about other topics. To me, that says “OK the kink is a little weird, but not a dealbreaker, (so long as he is open to vanilla intimacy)”
I think some of the difficulty I have with the idea of having to work to garner her (any hypothetical her) interest in BDSM, is it feels like leading. If she isn’t interested in what I want to do, then I don’t want to do it… it doesn’t sound like submission to me.
But of course you are correct it can be nearly impossible to gauge the reaction of a stranger via their writing.
This post was fascinating Peroxide. I think something you have to bear in mind is that people can come around to new ideas if they’re shown them in a way that isn’t alienating or devoid of care. Like the OKCupid girl says, many people can’t see how BDSM can be romantic or part of making love when really, you know that it can be – many people just haven’t seen it as part of a loving and caring dynamic. Explain that to her. All most people have to go on is kink being the punchline of a joke or something done in damp basements to paying clients and not as something that is part of a functioning, romantic relationship. Building relationships take time after all and even though it’s frustrating you should try to explain. It might not work this time, but it might soon enough. I think there’s probably a whole lot more people who would like kink they just haven’t been shown it in an appealing way yet.
I open to suggestions. Very open, cause without going on at length about it I don’t know to explain the romance and intimacy of it.
I don’t know how best to highlight the appeal to someone who a) I don’t even know and b) doesn’t find it innately appealing.
Well, that’s what art is really isn’t it? In its widest sense, art allows us to experience something outside of our own experience. If she’s interested, you could send her some of the (tamer, tenderer) things that you find appealing, in her preferred medium (photos, film, stories, pictures).
Like, http://peroxideshotstuff.tumblr.com/post/25255227993/thisblueboy-stephen-sinding-1846-1922 would be the sort of tone to start with maybe. Something that will appeal to HER as much as show her what you like (you could consider pondering through DD’s tumblr for things that women like…)
Normal provisos apply. Just my opinion.
We’ll see if she continues the kink discussion, the ball is in her court.
While most Christian guys have a “complicated” relationship with pornography, I’ve never heard of a practicing Christian girl react positively to porn. So linking my tumblr early in a discussion seems out of the question, as does most erotica. And as I’m constantly complaining there is a dearth of Female Dominant/ male submissive relationships in pop culture.
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In the future I think you need to rephrase your initial explanation of your interest in bdsm, when you’re talking to someone who is relatively clueless about it.
This:
“I really kink heavily on ownership and the the sensual aspects of D/s. I have some pretty heavy masochistic fantasies, but couldn’t engage in them without an active partner who derives pleasure from the exchange.”
is probably kinda confusing and potentially off-putting to someone who has no clue about kink – your wording is too.. advanced imo. Perhaps try saying simply that you want to be in a marriage where your wife is the one in charge, and there’s an emphasis on you pleasing her in any way she wants. You could also mention that you’re mostly drawn to dominance and submission in a romantic and sensual sense, but that you also like the idea of bondage and receiving intense sensation, as long as your wife would also derive pleasure from those things.
Regardless, I think it may be a good idea to leave out phrases like, “I really kink heavily” and “heavy masochistic fantasies”, at least until you get some positive response on the issue of bdsm in general.
You don’t have to put it all out there in the first conversation. Start your explanations in a gentle fashion, and leave the heavier stuff for later. Give her a chance to wrap her head around it a bit at a time.
I think you’re probably right, that quote is taken from an earlier blog post of mine and I picked it because I felt it best described what I’m looking for. I generally trust that people should be able to understand what I mean via context or a quick google search, but perhaps this is giving people too much credit.
Honestly this is the first time I’ve discussed kink so early or explicitly, and only did so because she asked, and I couldn’t figure out how to give a simple honest answer without going into specifics. Otherwise I definitely would have introduced the topic a lot more gradually.
I don’t think it’s necessarily a matter of people understanding per se, but more a matter of first impressions. Yeah, she can do a google search or whatever, but if your initial phrasing has already put a bad taste in her mouth, you’ve probably started off on the wrong foot regardless of her intellectual understanding of the subject.
Also, I wanted to ask – is that kind of long-ass email normal for your okCupid interactions? I’m impressed.
I see, I guess more vanilla phrasing sounds inaccurate, almost dishonest, but I might try using kid glove next time I give this a go.
As to the length of this email it’s average for the people I want to talk to, I generally try to respond to every point someone has made in their message and ask a question or two to keep the conversation going. But if I get a message from someone who clearly didn’t read or didn’t understand my profile, or has nothing interesting about them on their profile, my response will be brief.