Sherlock, has been popping up on my radar lately for having hints of BDSM and F/m or some-such. Just watched the first episode. Quite good, Steven Moffat knows his business. I’ve been thinkingabout a scene where Watson and his new acquaintance/flatmate Sherlock Holmes get a table at a restaurant together and the owner assumes that they are together.
It’s been a while since I’ve been on a date, and while I might dine out on my own occasionally I prefer company, usually (if It’s not a relation) it will be a male friend. In fact last Sunday I grabbed dinner and movie (The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo is fantastic by the way) with a buddy of mine. It was a lot of fun, but resembled a date rather more than I’d like.
I probably should've avoided saying: "Lets Go Outback Tonight"
While I do wonder how it looks sometimes, it isn’t really uncomfortable. What is uncomfortable however, is to be on a non-date with a member of the opposite sex, because there while it still doesn’t matter what others might think, you have to gauge your dinner partner’s thoughts.
Are you both on the same page of the dateness or undateness of the evening?
If the two of you do become romantically involved, does this retroactively become your first date?
Who pays? Should you pay on the off chance that you do end up dating, and this does become your first date?
Are you ok with having not paid for dinner on your first date? what kind of guy does that?
How genteel should you be? While you should always open a door for a lady. Are you going to give this female friend, with whom you’re simply hanging out, the impression that you are romantically interested by opening doors, pulling out chairs, waiting for her to sit and offering to pay?
You are at least slightly attracted to her aren’t you? Billy crystal was right, Men and women can’t be friends. What would it be like to kiss her? What? Focus, she was talking about school or soccer or something. Besides she’s not into you. Why isn’t she interested in you, she came out to dinner with you? So, we’re just friends! She doesn’t even think of me that way! Why not? does she think your gay? I mean, you do go out to dinner with men an awful lot.
Before I know it, I’m dripping with sweat and my lady friend is asking me if the food is to spicy for me?
*laughs* When in doubt be traditional!
Well…there’s probably a more catchy way to say that. But I love when a man opens doors for me, or pulls my chair out, or doesn’t offer to pay…but instead goes *ahead* and does it.
And if he does all three of those…*swoons*
What can I say, I like to feel special, even if it’s just a guy friend.
I have a friend that is the only guy in the group . The other three of us are women.
He *always* gets the doors for us and usually drives us from point A to point B. However, he only pays if there’s one of us. That can get pricey.
But I do know that it also depends on what area you’re in. Here in the grand ‘ole South, being gentlemanly in the traditional sense is a requirement. And as a woman here in the South, I’ve come to expect this sort of behavior.
Do whatever feels right I guess. =)
Lady D
Here in the great northwest, traditional manners tend to come across as romantic overtures, (at least among the younger set.)
Which has for me both caused a young lady to think I was interested in her, and subsequently led to me being accused of “leading her on.” and also created this awkward, vibe for a friend of mine who wanted me to be clear she didn’t like me that way.
I still do whatever feels right, and err on the traditional side, but it’s a whole pile of emotional guesswork that I don’t deal with on a bro-date.
Ah, cultural differences. Aren’t they dandy?
Maybe you should move to the South and be all polite over here. We certainly don’t mind it.
Lady D
Gah! I had a couple of experiences going out with male friends when I was younger that ended up in that ‘date-or-not’ territory. With one, I discovered that he DID think it was a date and I had to back away slowly without hurting his feelings, and with the other I ended up feeling completely confused as to whether he thought it was a date or not because he acted so… weird. In my mind, neither were dates. Ugh. Awkward.
I’d suggest you act the same as you always act around them. If you are normally a door opener, chair getter etc, then do that. If you aren’t, then don’t because it will feel strange to her. I’d add that I wouldn’t let a friend pay unless it’s a ‘Great, thanks… I’ll get it next time’ kind of thing. It just seems to make things even more date-like and confusing (Lady D’s situation where ‘it’s the done thing’ for a man taking out a female friend isn’t the norm here, though I do have ‘traditional’ male friends who won’t let me pick up the tab also).
Mind you, if you LIKE her, then all bets are off, but then make it clear in an intense and focussed “I would like to take you out for dinner” kind of way vs a “let’s grab a bite” kind of way.
Or, be like me, and trawl the internet with pretty words and naked pictures and wait for them to come to you…
Ferns
Mind you, if you LIKE her, then all bets are off, but then make it clear in an intense and focussed “I would like to take you out for dinner” kind of way vs a “let’s grab a bite” kind of way.
There is a weird space between the two, and I’m thinking of a particular friend in this instance, where I’m not sure whether I want to go for the date and risk making things uncomfortable if she doesn’t feel the same way, or just enjoy her company. While I’ve actually had several not-a-dates with her, I’ve never been great at reading her interest. Which is where a lot of this post comes from.
If you aren’t sure if you want to go for the date, then it’s not really compelling, is it? You sound ambivalent, and unless it’s ‘must have her or die!’, I’d not go there.
Good luck with it, it’s tricky stuff.
Ferns
Oh, I’m not ambivalent, she’s quite possibly the most beautiful woman I’ve ever met, we get on well, and she’s tons of fun.
But, While I have felt some chemistry, I’ve never been sure, and I’d rather maintain a friendship with this remarkable woman than become a story for her to tell about this guy she was friends with who proclaimed his undying love for her while she thought we were just hanging out.
I have done the “must have or die” love before, it ended poorly, though in the end I survived, and these days I’m a bit more cautious in matters of the heart. (and possibly guilty of overthinking it.)
“I mean, you do go out to dinner with men an awful lot.”
That made me laugh.
You do seem to be overthinking it (which I do, as well, in similar situations), and that makes it difficult to read the signals she’s giving you as far as what she thinks is going on between the two of you. I think women are at least equally aware of the date/non-date issue and will make it clear where they stand, if you’re paying attention and willing to listen. I had a very involved issue of the same kind and, looking back, she was sending every signal in the world, almost desperately sending them, that she was only interested in a friendship. But I plowed ahead. It caused the end of the best friendship of my life, but I don’t regret it. I was in love with her. Was I supposed to not tell her? I’d have regretted that even more.
I may be projecting, but I’m getting the feeling that you’re already leaning toward romantic feelings. I’d suggest trying to get the best objective read on the situation as you can and make the decision to either back off in hopes of maintaining the friendship or take the shot. A great friendship is as valuable as anything in the world, including love, but a friendship with someone you’re actually in love with but you don’t think (or you’re sure) they don’t feel the same way, is not a great friendship. It’s hell alive. People say if you try to kiss a friend, you’ll lose that friend forever. Well? If you try to climb a mountain you might fall. If you get on a plane it might crash. If you leave your house, you might get attacked by a tiger. No one suggests you don’t do those things. I certainly don’t regret telling my friend I loved her. But I suppose if I could have picked up sooner on what was going on in my own head, I might have tried to keep romantic feelings out of it, because I do think some of that can be controlled, at least at an early point. Maybe you’re at that early enough point.
Side note: I just realized you can cut and paste other people’s comments in when you want to quote them. I always thought people were typing them in.
There is a smidgen of hyperbole in my given example. Though, I can obsess I tend not to get overly nervous while doing so.
I wish everyone could be more straight forward about what they want, and you could take people at their word, but there are so many conflicting cultural messages on what to do with love (infatuation, romantic interest) that i think we’re worse off than if we had no advice at tall.
I’m so late to the party!
Being a Pac NW denizen myself I would pretty much confirm your suspicions on the door opening/chair holding vibe ’round these parts. It often is used an “I’m interested in you” signals. There are some other undercurrents there sometimes… haven’t we discussed this before?
There is a lot of case-by-case in how some of these things play out (door holding is not equivalent to chair holding, door holding can be done in different ways and in most situations I personally didn’t, and still don’t, want male friends paying the tab for me, but there are exceptions) and the most important thing is what is being communicated. Good manners are meant to make people feel valued and comfortable. If what you consider good manners is not doing that than I would suggest you re-evaluate how you interact or whom you interact with.
Also, I am a big fan of getting feedback in a really chill way. Offer her a choice.
“So, we are going out for dinner Friday…
shall I pick you up, bring you flowers, and kiss your hand or should I meet you there and just make sure I have a clean shirt on?”
Ya know, whatever, just something amusing along those lines with your distinctive Peroxide sweetness and humor so you have some low-key feedback about what she wants.
Ask, baby, or you may never know.
your distinctive Peroxide sweetness and humor so you have some low-key feedback about what she wants.
I try, it can be difficult to be, sweet, suave or clever while managing the symptoms of infatuation.